On Theology
Quickly.I just can't get past John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
I cannot get past John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
I cannot get past the word eklektos.
I am not saying that we are picked up and put where we ought to be, because I lived my life like that for too long, and it becomes confusing and dead after a while. The Spirit draws us, but I get the impression that there is motion on our part, too. It would be like walking into a fair and smelling popcorn and following your nose. God makes us hungry, and He provides the scent. We follow our nose, so to speak. But if we weren't made hungry by the father, we'd never be drawn by the scent. I hope that explains where I'm coming from.
I do not agree with the notion that we can sit on our haunches and say simply "well, I'm chosen, and you all aren't. sorry." I did that, but that is not living in the light; that is spiritual darkness still. And the Father, who calls, disciplines His children (oh boy does He ever). And I learned that I had to get up and start moving. But the spark of spiritual life within me was not an intellectual assent to a story I had heard from childhood, it was a rebirth attributed only to the gracious and merciful hand of God.
I will finish by saying that while I agree MORE with Calvinism, I think that creating a man-made framework to explain salvation causes frustration, confusion, and unnecessary arguments. Stick to the Word of God and accept that there are some things we simply do not know.
posted by Marcian @ 11:27 AM
5 Comments:
Marcian,
Good points. John 6:37, 44, and 65 teach us the following:
1. Sinners must be drawn and enabled by God to come salvation.
2. All that are drawn do in fact come. It is 100% effective.
Since it is 100% effective and some do not come, then there must be some that God does not draw…… Some that are not enabled. Romans 8:8 and Ephesians 2:5 point out very clearly that God must intervene and take action or man will not come. Jesus in John 3:3 says that one must be born again to even see the kingdom of heaven. Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9 (especially v. 16) tell the same story. The Scripture proof to mans’ inability to come to faith apart from God’s taking action is quite large.
Hi Marcia,
John 6:44 and John 17:9 only have application to the Jews of that time, before the Crucifixion occurred. After Jesus' death and Resurrection, all men would be drawn by God (John 12:32).
Those drawn by the Father to believe in Jesus for eternal life in 6:44 were those Jews who had heard and learned from the Father (v. 45). Yes, the Jews who had not heard and learned from the Father, and who were subsequently hostile to Jesus, were not drawn by the Father at that time, and hence would not believe. However, after his death and Resurrection, Jesus started to draw all men, and some of the Jews who had called for His crucifixion were cut to the heart and finally believed that he was the Christ, who would freely give them eternal life (Acts 2:36-39).
T.J. Pennock, from the Liver and Onion blog, gave a beautiful exposition of John 6:44:
"Jesus is simply stating here that the Father gives to Him all those who've HEARD and LEARNED of Father (6:45), hence, BELIEVERS (true Father worshippers). And since those Jews currently murmuring against Him were unbelievers (6:36,41-43), Jesus says they won't come to Him (6:37) because they never came to the Father, for the Father only gives to the Son--and draws to the Son (6:44,45)--those who've HEARD and LEARNED of the Father Himself (6:45).
Perhaps the Cals think by injecting predestination or election into the text it bolsters their sagging theory of unconditional election and its cluster of supporting truths. I don't know. But it certainly doesn't clarify anything. In the end, though, John 6:44 won't help the Cals, and for this reason: The text is talking not about the eternal, unconditional election of the Father but about the Father's giving and drawing those faithful (believing) Jews--who have already HEARD and LEANED of the Father (6:45)--to the Son.
There's no predestination going on here. What we have is the Father drawing His worshippers to also become the Son's worshippers. And the truth is those who have HEARD and LEARNED of the Father (6:45) will SEE and BELIEVE the Son (6:40). When Jesus says, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" (6:37), He is correct. Why? Because all the Father gives Him are true worshippers who have already HEARD and LEARNED of the Father. And now in obedience to the drawing and convincing ministry of God, they SEE and BELIEVE the Son, as well.."
Marcian,
There are many passages of Scripture that speak to mans inability to come to God unless God the Holy Spirit acts on their heart and regenerates them. This does not happen to everyone, so what is the conclusion.
Danny will have to refute a lot more Scripture than John 6 to seriously challenge the doctrines of grace..... Not that I accept what he has written here.
Any framework that exists in your mind will be man-made to some extent, so you can't just "stick to the word of God" any more than anyone else. How arrogant it would be to think your opinion would be "just sticking to the bible" while others follow a man-made framework. Not saying you're doing that, just something to be careful about.
As for the interpretation of those verses, I totally agree with jazzycat. And to be totally blunt, I think danny's comments almost couldn't possibly be more wrong. And I'm not even a Calvinist. [I'd love to respond to it point-by-point but that'd take a while]
The verses you mentioned make it clear that God draws/drags people, and that whoever is dragged will come to him. It becomes even MORE clear if you carefully study the context of those verses.
The fact that we're dragged doesn't mean we don't have a part in it. We're the one being dragged, so we fulfill our part of being dragged, which is believing and expressing faith in God. But it's not because of something in us, it's because of what God did.
It's not just as if God is providing a "scent" for our nose to follow. God CREATED our nose, our brains, etc. so in doing that he determined what our response would be to the "scent". Sure, we make the final decision. Of course we do. But that decision is based on what HE did, so ultimately it was still predtermined by God. There's just no way around it unless you deny that God is (a) all-knowing and/or (b) our creator.
Thanks, Matt. I agree with that.
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